KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday, Meet the Moment. Conversations with people who are having an impact in Washington and beyond.
SELMA BLAIR:
I’m in pain every day. Every day. I really am in pain all the time. There is a stiffness that does – does not leave me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Actress Selma Blair who was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis is using her voice for the rights of all those living with disabilities.
SELMA BLAIR:
I want equity. I want justice.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Author and journalist Tim Alberta with a warning about how he says the evangelical church is changing.
TIM ALBERTA:
They think the barbarians are at the gates, and so they need a barbarian to defend them, to protect them. These people have decided that the best way to preserve Christian virtue in this country is to first set Christian virtue aside.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Has it shaken your faith?
TIM ALBERTA:
Not even a little bit, no.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Allyson Felix, the most decorated U.S. track and field athlete of all time speaking out about the black maternal health crisis.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What do you wish doctors had told you?
ALLYSON FELIX:
That, as a woman of color, I'm already at a greater risk for these complications. Three of the fittest, healthiest women in the world are facing these complications. I think it shows how dangerous it is to give birth today in America as a Black woman.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Iranian American activist Masih Alinejad and her push for women’s rights in Iran and around the world.
MASIH ALINEJAD:
My weapon is my words. And that shows you that my weapon is more powerful than their voice. That's why they wanted to get rid of me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome to Sunday and a special edition of Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history, this is a special edition of Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. For more than 75 years, Meet the Press has had a history of shining a light on people who influence our politics from outside of Washington, from Jackie Robinson to Robert Frost, Jane Fonda and Gloria Steinem.
[START TAPE]
JANE FONDA:
I am a citizen activist. I think it is in the highest tradition of our country for private citizens to speak out, not just as individuals but as members of organizations that can have some power.
SHANA ALEXANDER:
Are you saying that the white, male, educated person is the enemy of the women's movement, or the adversary, I beg your pardon?
GLORIA STEINEM:
From a statistical point of view that is accurate
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
This morning, we are unveiling a special series and we're calling it Meet the Moment. From authors to activists, to community leaders, poets and scientists, the voices outside of our politics shaping conversations that matter. We begin with actor Selma Blair who is known for her deadpan humor with quirky, intelligent performances in iconic films like "Cruel Intentions", "Heathers" and "Legally Blonde":
[START TAPE]
CECILE CALDWELL:
What are the boys like?
BUNNY CALDWELL:
Cecile, is that all you can think of? Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.
JADE DUKE:
Doesn’t look like anyone’s coming to your little party to me, Heather.
PROFESSOR:
Vivian Kensington, do you think it’s acceptable that Ms. Woods is not prepared?
VIVIAN KENSINGTON:
No. I don’t
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Five years ago at age 46, Blair was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, after battling the autoimmune disease from the age of seven. In 2019, she walked onto the red carpet with a cane for the first time at an Oscars afterparty, making her disability visible in a powerful way. Now Blair has become an advocate for Americans living with disabilities, joining President Biden at the White House in October to recognize the 33rd anniversary of the Americans with disabilities act and to advocate for new legislation for disability rights and pay equity.
[START TAPE]
SELMA BLAIR:
I'm here before you today as a proud disabled woman with my cane and my service dog Scout by my side. Our laws and policies must reflect that our disabled lives are not of lesser value.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Selma Blair, welcome to Meet the Press.
SELMA BLAIR:
Thank you –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you for being here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You were diagnosed five years ago with multiple sclerosis. You're in remission now. How are you doing, Selma?
SELMA BLAIR:
I am in remission, so that is a very safe place to be, you know, as far as diagnoses go. But I do have – even though there's no evidence of current disease activity, I do still have the leftovers. It does – I did have it for many years and didn't know, and it does leave some, you know, burn areas, some scar tissue and all that. And mine is in the basal ganglia, movement and stuff. So some of my stuff looks a little different than other people with MS. There's a gazillion types of MS, wherever your damage is. But I'm doing really well.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You have your beautiful dog, Scout, here with you. Are you in any pain?
SELMA BLAIR:
You know –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Talk about the strength you find every day.
SELMA BLAIR:
I am. I'm in pain every day. Every day. I have dystonia also that really doesn't always flare up for entire conversations, but it’s almost like someone with a stutter maybe, or a type of Tourette's. So things go in and out. People don't always understand that. So there can be a lot of discrimination and confusion I think with people thinking I'm putting something on, and then I have a dog, and I just want a dog with me. So there's a lot of tricky stuff. But the real fact is I really am in pain all the time. There is a stiffness that does – does not leave me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to talk to you about your journey to diagnosis. You have written about it. You have done a documentary about it. You say that you had symptoms starting at seven years old?
SELMA BLAIR:
I mean, there is a prodromal period, so I'm not certain that it actually was, like, a full on. But there is – my neurologist was explaining, there can be years of prodromal, you know, accruing and great fatigue and problems. But I did. I had the thing where you bend down, I get electricity. I had very clear signs at that time. I had optical neuritis as a child, which really is only from brain trauma or MS. And yet, they didn't recognize it in me, even though I was seeking doctors my entire childhood.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You have said of your experience, and this really was incredibly powerful, you've said, "If you're a boy with those symptoms, you get an MRI. If you're a girl, you're called crazy." And a number of studies support exactly what you are saying. Why do you think that this continues to be a problem in medicine?
SELMA BLAIR:
They were all, you know, older male doctors who really probably did not know the intricacies of a girl. And that, you know, everything does not need to be blamed on menstruation or something. Yes, that comes with its own bag of things to know about. And also, medical students, I mean, they don't have MS and MS is different for everyone. And they can be disguised as emotional things. I have prefrontal damage that would cause, you know, hysterical crying and laughing. And I just thought, "Wow, I'm just that wild one that wakes up in the middle of the night, like, waking myself up laughing hysterically, or sobbing, or in front of people just very moody maybe." And – and I believed all these things. And I was put on really strong antidepressants from a really young age. And I drank. I drank because I felt so other. I just went in the basement and I drank from a really young.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What age?
SELMA BLAIR:
From seven.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When you got that diagnosis after all of those years of suffering, you are describing real suffering, and you were finally diagnosed at age 46, what was that moment like for you, Selma?
SELMA BLAIR:
I was relieved I finally had something that could be understood, and then treated. It took me until, like, another year to realize a lot of my childhood symptoms were MS. I thought, "Oh, all this poor feeling I had and this lethargy and this attitude, all of this has led to now I've given myself MS." You know, everything. But it was the gratitude of people helping me. I was such a loner in my life. I was already sober by this point though. I had already really made an effort to get myself on track. I mean, more than an effort. It was a major change. And I am so grateful that I had been sober for years so I could properly, you know, process and – and – and feel comfortable realizing what people were doing for me, and realizing this is not the norm.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When you think about those years that you went undiagnosed, that doctors were frankly not listening to you, do you feel anger?
SELMA BLAIR:
Sometimes, but I don't want to feel anger because I don't want to feel blame. I don’t want to because – you know, because maybe I wasn't ready to be diagnosed then. You know, maybe I wouldn't have been able to quit drinking. I don't know. The things that were such clear signs I went in with, the part that I get most sad because it made me lose, you know, my entire – my entire years until diagnosis because – because I hated myself for making up that I wasn't feeling well. I just believed that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, you were recently at the White House, and lending your powerful voice to mark the 50th anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act. What was it like for you to be there at the White House? Why was that important for you to be there?
SELMA BLAIR:
For me, it was such a mark of how far I'd come. And I meant that as something that could be aspirational to people. Not that you have to be cured, not that, like, oh, getting some great podium is the answer for something. But that there was such, like, a vibrance in me. And that it was, like, I had the energy to get on this plane, to get to this incredible experience. And – and, of course, you know, having that walk from the White House to the South Lawn was really healing for me in so many ways. Having, you know, the most powerful man in the world, like, on your arm – you know, I'm on his arm. And I just thought, "Wow. Things have changed. And a lot of this is the help from the disability community.” Judy Heumann, who is the greatest organizer and rally – rallier of her friends with disabilities, she was the grand dam. You know, she created the American Disabilities Act. They did the sit-in when the government wouldn't see it. Disabled people getting out of their wheelchairs and lying on the ground to say, "Pay attention" because growing up, we did not have exposure to people with disabilities. It was like they didn't exist. And I had that mindset. Not on purpose, I just had very little awareness.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What is your message to lawmakers, to the president? What do you want to see next for the disabled community?
SELMA BLAIR:
Equity, accessibility. I mean, yes, of course, I'm so grateful that anything was put into place. But again, sub-minimum wage for people with disabilities. You can work all day and get paid $0.50 an hour. No. Why is that okay? Really, they just use it kind of as like slave labor, you know, to get disabled people out of the house, to have something to just. It's really out of touch and wrong. I want – I want equity. I want justice. I want this community and all other marginalized ones too, of course, but the – the disability community is – is creative and strong and loyal and fun. And, I mean, really because they're people that have had to figure out situations. And I – I – I – really don't do lip service. You really need to be with people with disabilities. And, you know, "Nothing about us without us" is what I've heard, you know, said from the start when I joined up. And it's like, "Oh, right. Right, of course." Of course, we need a fit model that is a wheelchair user. Of course, you need a real wheelchair user to go down that ramp to check that angle. You know there are things that you – you're trying to do the right thing, but you're not really at the crux of starting this conversation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, journalist and author Tim Alberta, the son of a pastor, with a warning about the evangelical church and how it's testing his faith.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Journalist Tim Alberta explores the complicated relationship white evangelicals have with faith and politics in the Trump era in a new book: "The Kingdom, the Power and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism." In 2019, Tim's dad died suddenly and he returned home to Cornerstone, the church his father had pastored in Michigan for nearly three decades, a place where Tim's own christian faith had grown. Instead of consoling him, some members of the church approached him to complain about his journalism. One church member wrote a letter demanding he investigate the "deep state" and accusing him of treason. Tim says it's a crisis in Christianity. Evangelical leader Russell Moore spoke about it earlier this year.
[START TAPE]
RUSSELL MOORE:
Almost every family that I know has people who don't speak to each other anymore about this personality and this figure
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about your father, because you open your book recalling your experience at your father's funeral. You were, understandably, expecting compassion from the church community with whom you had grown up. A lot of these people knew you as a kid. They watched you grow up. And yet, you experienced something very different in part because your coverage of then-candidate Trump. What was that experience like?
TIM ALBERTA:
Yeah. So, I'd been pretty critical of Donald Trump. I think, you know, objectively critical and fair in my coverage, but critical nonetheless. And, yeah, when it came time to bury my father at the church where I'd grown up and where he'd served as the pastor for more than 25 years, there were some people who saw that occasion as appropriate to just have it out with me, to litigate their differences with me over Trump, over Trumpism, over politics in general. Now, I want to be clear. There were lots of people there who – who mourned with me, and cried with me, and who treated me like the grieving son that I was. But there were some of these folks who didn't see a grieving son. They saw a vulnerable adversary in that moment, someone who was on the other side. And that's heartbreaking. It's not just heartbreaking because it was me and it was my dad's funeral. It's heartbreaking because this happened inside a sanctuary, right? Sanctuary means set apart. It is a place set apart for the purpose of believers to come together, and to worship, and be one body in Christ and – and this was not that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Someone handed you a letter at your father's funeral. What did it say, and how did you response?
TIM ALBERTA:
Yeah. So, the letter was from a longtime elder in the church, family friend, someone who'd known me since I was a child. And the letter basically just accused me of being a traitor, a part of the deep state, that I was undermining God's ordained leader of this country –
KRISTEN WELKER:
A traitor?
TIM ALBERTA:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That's strong language.
TIM ALBERTA:
Well, you know – and this is part of what I've tried to unpack in this book, but this tie between God and country and this idea that America is a kingdom that is ordained by God and must be fought for as though salvation itself hangs in the balance. Kristen, it leads individuals who I think, deep in their heart, are good people to do, and to think, and to say some really unhealthy things.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Given that, that you watched this evolution of people within the evangelical community act, say, behave in ways that you feel was antithetical to what you were taught in scripture, has it shaken your faith?
TIM ALBERTA:
Not even a little bit, no. My favorite author, favorite writer, favorite apologist, C.S. Lewis, he said that, "We only know that a line is crooked because we have first seen a straight line." So, you know, mankind is broken in many ways. Humanity has been fallen since the Garden of Eden. And if you believe that, as I do, you believe that we only recognize that brokenness because we know what God's perfect plan looks like, and that's Jesus. And so, for – for people to deviate in this way, no, it doesn't shake my faith. It shakes my faith in the institutions of Christianity, the institutions of men. But it doesn't shake my faith in Jesus. And – and – and I hope, if nothing else, that people will understand that as they read the book, that I am not trying to burn down Christianity. I'm not trying to destroy the church. I'm trying to help stabilize the church.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Sounds like part of what you're saying is that this experience writing this book, some of your personal, painful experiences, may have even deepened your faith.
TIM ALBERTA:
I think that's totally fair to say. And, in fact, yeah, they have, because when you're – when you’re really hurting, you know, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said, "Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted." And, you know, I – I have felt that comfort in ways that I probably wouldn't have had I not gone through some of this. And so, I'm really grateful for that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You write that, quote, "For decades, the Religious Right had imposed exacting moral litmus test on public officials. And yet, eventually," quote, "Evangelical leaders embraced Trump's shortcomings." How do you explain this evolution?
TIM ALBERTA:
Well, it is an evolution, and it's an arc. So, you think about the 2016 election, and it's easy to forget now, but for a long time, evangelicals were Trump's softest supporters. He had to really go to great lengths to firm up his – his support. He had to put Mike Pence on the ticket. He had to release the list of Supreme Court nominees. And I think what I mean by that is, for a lot of these people who are panicked, who are just stricken with fear about the culture changing so quickly, and the country turning on Christianity, and that their faith is in the crosshairs, and one day, they're going to be persecuted for their faith in this country, I mean, a lot of folks believe that. They think the barbarians are at the gates, and so they need a barbarian to defend them, to protect them. And so, you know, they look at Trump, and the behavior, and the rhetoric, and, in some sense, because he is not bound by biblical teachings, not bound by biblical virtues, he is free to fight for them in ways that no good Christian ever would. And that's the tragic irony to all of this, is that, in some sense, these people have decided that the best way to preserve Christian virtue in this country is to first set Christian virtue aside.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You go so far as to say Christianity is in a state of disarray. Can it be fixed? And what needs to happen?
TIM ALBERTA:
Well, what needs to happen is to get back to Christ.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You have said that this book is about Christianity, but it's about your dad, too. What do you think your dad would make of this book?
TIM ALBERTA:
Well, I think we would have some spirited conversations about parts of the book. I think he would disagree with certain conclusions that I've reached. But I think the underlying message, and I think the figure whom I'm constantly redirecting the conversation back toward, Jesus, I think he would be incredibly encouraged by that, and – and he would be in total agreement with me on the ultimate conclusion.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And just big picture, Tim, as we approach Christmas, where are you with your faith right now?
TIM ALBERTA:
My faith has never been stronger. And, to be honest, I was really worried about it. When I set out to do this project, I knew that I would encounter some things that could shake my faith. And I have prayed every day, and I have – I have read my scripture, and I have been in community with believers, my small group, my wife, family friends, people who have helped to keep me grounded throughout this journey. So, my faith has never been stronger. And I think what I've really come to appreciate is how, Kristen, you know, this idea that we shouldn't air the dirty laundry inside the church, that we shouldn't try to hold ourselves accountable, I mean, that’s – that's nonsense. If you look throughout scripture, Old Testament prophets and New Testament disciples and apostles, that's all they did was call out what was wrong in the church and point people back to the true God. So – so, it has been trying, for sure, but I've emerged, actually, in an even better place than I went in, which is kind of crazy to say.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Tim Alberta, thank you so much for sharing your reflections on your book with us. We really appreciate it.
TIM ALBERTA:
Thanks for having me, Kristen. Merry Christmas.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Merry Christmas.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, seven-time olympic gold medalist Allyson Felix talks about her life-threatening experience giving birth, and her push for improving black maternal healthcare.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. When Allyson Felix stepped off the track at the Tokyo Games in 2021, she had just won her 11th career medal, 7 golds, eclipsing Carl Lewis to become the most decorated U.S. track and field athlete in Olympic history. But now she’s making headlines for a new reason, as an advocate for black maternal health. Black women have a maternal mortality rate about three times the rate for white women. For Felix, it is personal. In 2018, she developed severe preeclampsia during her pregnancy with her daughter Camryn. And in a devastating turn, this past May, Tori Bowie, the anchor of the gold medal-winning relay team at the Rio Olympics, was found dead in her home after facing complications from childbirth at 8 months pregnant. That experience, and her own, has made Allyson Felix a powerful voice on behalf of black moms everywhere from the White House to the halls of Congress.
[START TAPE]
ALLYSON FELIX:
Mothers don't die from childbirth, right? Not in 2019, not professional athletes, not at one of the best hospitals in the country, and certainly not to women who have a birthing plan in the birthing suite lined up. I thought maternal health was solely about fitness resources and care. If that was true, then why was this happening to me?
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Allyson Felix, welcome to Meet the Press.
ALLYSON FELIX:
Thank you so much for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about your road to motherhood. At 32 weeks, you were diagnosed with preeclampsia. Your beautiful daughter Camryn was born two months early. How did that experience shape you?
ALLYSON FELIX:
I feel like it really changed me. And I think more than anything, it opened my eyes. I – I think I kind of had an understanding of statistics and of what maternal health was like in America. But I didn't really understand it. I remember when I was in the hospital, and I had this whole birth plan, you know? I thought I was going to have a natural birth, and it was going to be beautiful and all these things. And they told me I had a severe case of preeclampsia. And I didn't even quite understand what that meant or what that meant for me, for my baby, and just feeling scared. You know, I'm a professional athlete. I've taken care of my body my entire life. And so to know that things really got scary and difficult was so hard. But at the same time, it opened my eyes to the struggles of so many other women, and especially women of color.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Take me inside that moment when you were told that you had preeclampsia. Because you had gone in for a routine checkup –
ALLYSON FELIX:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– at 32 weeks. What were those emotions?
ALLYSON FELIX:
Yeah, I was expecting to go home, you know? And I was admitted. And when I was admitted, things just spiraled downhill really quickly. And so I didn't even have time, quite, to process everything. And it just moved so fast. And then I ended up having an emergency C-section. And there was just a lot of fear.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What was your greatest fear?
ALLYSON FELIX:
That my daughter wouldn't make it, you know? That I don’t even think – it wasn't until after, you know, I came out of that experience that I realized how scared my family was for my life. I was only thinking about my daughter and what that meant for her. But they told me later on that they were so uncertain.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When you're in the middle of this experience, as you say, you didn't have that broader sense that women of color –
ALLYSON FELIX:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– experience complications during pregnancy at higher rates. Did you feel like your doctors, your medical community, was listening to you?
ALLYSON FELIX:
I felt like I should've known that I was at risk. I felt like I should've been told the signs to look for. Instead, I wasn't. I didn't know what preeclampsia was. I didn't understand that the swelling in my feet is just not simply a sign of pregnancy, but could be preeclampsia. And so I – I felt like I had great medical care, but that's not always enough.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What do you wish doctors had told you?
ALLYSON FELIX:
That, as a woman of color, that I'm already at a greater risk for these complications. What are the signs? What can I do to, you know, help this not happen? And also, you know, I should be taking my blood pressure at a certain point. So just being educated and being aware is huge.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So no doctors ever relayed that information to you, that you were at higher risk for something like preeclampsia as a woman of color?
ALLYSON FELIX:
No, I – I wasn't told that. The first mention I heard of preeclampsia was when I was being diagnosed with it. And so I think that's why awareness is so huge for me and to, you know, not only tell my story, but amplify other stories
KRISTEN WELKER:
Did you get sick? How bad did it get?
ALLYSON FELIX:
Yeah. My – because I had severe features of preeclampsia, they were in constant worry of me having a stroke, of my vision being lost. And so that – the only cure for preeclampsia right now is to deliver. And so that's what happened very quickly. You know, I went from being admitted to the hospital and being told that our goal was to stay there for another two weeks, to try to stay pregnant. And I delivered, you know, later that night. And so it was a very quick progression. But I know that if I did not deliver, myself or my baby or both of us wouldn't have made it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You've been very outspoken because the bigger picture here is that there were four of you on the 2016 Olympic track and field team in Rio and then your teammate, Tori Bowie, tragically died of complications due to childbirth. How is that possible in this day and age?
ALLYSON FELIX:
I mean, it's absolutely devastating that, you know, three of the fittest, healthiest women in the world are facing these complications. And I think it's a stark reminder that, you know, this condition does not discriminate. It doesn't matter if you have the – the best medical care. You can still suffer from it. And to me, it just really hurts my heart that my friend, Tori, passed away, and it brought this back to the forefront. But this has been happening, you know? This is the reality of Black women giving birth in America. And there are so many situations that are like this. And so I hate that it takes such a – a devastating loss, you know, to bring it back to the forefront. But it also is just such a motivation that, you know, we have to do better.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What was that moment like when you realized Tori had passed giving – in the midst of childbirth?
ALLYSON FELIX:
It was heartbreaking. It’s heartbreaking When I read that it was eclampsia, yeah, I just – it just brought everything back to the forefront. I mean, I had been doing work in this space and so passionate about it. But when it's someone you know, when it's a friend, someone that you have competed alongside and had all these special moments and – you know, everyone dreams of motherhood. A lot of women do. And it just breaks my heart to know that that was her experience. I think it shows how dangerous it is to give birth today in America as a Black woman. I mean, out of the four of the women on the team, like, three of us are mothers. That's 100%. And that is astonishing, and it’s – it's just not okay. I think about the future and just keeping families together. And I just know that we have to do more.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What is your message to the medical community? What more do you want to see done?
ALLYSON FELIX:
Yeah, definitely more training, more implicit bias training. You know, we – there's countless stories of women not being heard when they are in the delivery room at doctors appointments. I don't think you should have to be prepared to advocate for yourself. I think it's intimidating for a lot of women, you know? The doctor is the expert. And so to have to really push up against them is difficult. And so that's one thing. Policy change, of course, you know, at that level is very important. And then just the awareness of it all as well. And I think we just have to remember these stories, the – these people, and not be detached from that as well.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When you look at the statistics, women of color are three times more likely to die in childbirth than white women. When you see those statistics, and 80% of complications are preventable, how does that make you feel?
ALLYSON FELIX:
Knowing that 80% are preventable, to me it's infuriating. I also – it also brings me a lot of hope. Like, there is the possibility to reverse this. Like, we can do something about this. And I think it starts with listening. It starts with hearing. And obviously, there's a lot more to that. But I am hopeful for the future.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And before we go, exciting news: we learned after our interview, Allyson Felix is pregnant and expecting her second child: Camryn's baby brother is due in April. And you can catch the Paris Olympics next summer on NBC and streaming on Peacock. When we come back, a champion for women's rights, Masih Alinejad, is using her voice to challenge Iran's top leaders and inspiring others around the globe.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. As we do every year, we want to take a moment to remember some of the iconic people in politics, culture and the media whom we lost in the past 12 months.
[START TAPE]
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN:
I'm ready for a good fight. I've got things to fight for. I'm in a position where I can be effective, and hopefully that means something to California.
HENRY KISSINGER:
The United States cannot by itself solve every crisis that exists in the world, painful as these crises may be. And one of the philosophical questions that has to be answered is where we engage ourselves beyond moral condemnation and to what effect.
HARRY BELAFONTE:
I had no problem with being thrusted into the world of stardome because I never thought about it. I never – No where in my boyhood dreams was there the idea that one day I would be in Hollywood. One day I would be on broadway. Or one day I would be making an album that would be successful
JIM BROWN:
Athletes usually stay too long. They stay past their peak. I think you should always leave on time so they can remember the best of you.
BARBARA WALTERS:
I loved what I did and I thought the way to do it was to just work very hard and it would be noticed.
ROSALYNN CARTER:
I don't think I have ever shied away from controversy. I don't think Jimmy has ever shied away from controversy. Jimmy has always told me that if you do anything you are going to be criticized. The only way not to be criticized is just to be mediocre, never do anything.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. 22-year-old Mahsa Amini died last year in Iran in the custody of the morality police, arrested on charges of improperly wearing a hijab. Her death igniting protests in Iran and around the world. Tens of thousands of women and men waved placards with her face shouting, “Say her name." Women and girls threw off their head scarves and demanded the end to the Islamic republic’s rule. “The Mahsa movement,” became the most serious challenge to the legitimacy of Iran’s ruling clerics since they took power in 1979. Security forces responded with a violent crackdown, arresting thousands and killing at least 500 protesters, including children and teenagers. After fleeing Iran in 2009, women's rights activist Masih Alinejad has played a role in encouraging such demonstrations against the law in Iran mandating women wear a hijab. She lives in Brooklyn and was the target of a kidnapping attempt in 2021 and an assassination attempt by the Iranian government last year. And she's been called the woman whose hair frightens Iran.
[START TAPE]
MASIH ALINEJAD:
This should be on my head and cover my massive hair. And if I don't cover my hair, I get killed.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
As we sit here today, you are under threat of assassination by the Iranian government. You're under protection by the FBI. You have said you're not afraid. Where do you find your courage?
MASIH ALINEJAD:
To be honest, it is scary. But I don't want to live in fear, because I know this is the goal of those who are trying to kill us. These, you know, killers in Iran trying to put the fear inside us and to push us behind the curtain. I'm not going to let them win. That's why. And I learned from my heroes within the country, Iranian women, mothers whose children got killed. But they hold the picture of their beloved one, they go to the same street that their children got killed, and they say, "Here we are. We have no fear of you." So, I learn from my true heroes within the country. Even women walking unveiled, showing their beautiful hair is a crime. They walk unveiled,and they show their faces, and they say that, "You are scared of us not, you know, we, the women of Iran." We're badass.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, in some ways, this has been a lifelong fight for you. In your memoir, which I am holding here, The Wind in My Hair, you write that when you were a girl you weren't against the hijab, you were against the mandate that you had to actually wear a hijab. You wanted women to have the freedom to choose. How did you know at such a young age that you felt this way?
MASIH ALINEJAD:
First of all, it's not the wind in my hair anymore. It's the storm in the hair of Iranian women. Because, now, protesting against compulsory veiling became the symbol of saying no to a gender apartheid regime. But you're right, when I was a little girl in a tiny village in a very, very traditional family, I never had a clue about feminism or equality or nothing about, like, being my true self, let’s fight–no. I just had a little brother, Ali, and he was able to jump in the river. He was able to ride a bicycle. He was able to show his hair. He was able to sing, to go to stadium – all these activities that I was banned from doing this. Why? Because of being a girl. And that was not fair to me. That's why I started my revolution from my family's kitchen, saying to my family, "I don't want to be, like, you know, forced to stay at home. I want to go out everywhere." So, I remember that, in my tiny village, my brother Ali was scared of the darkness. During the day, he was able to go anywhere, prince of the village. During the night, he was scared of to go to the outhouse, because we didn't have inside bathroom in a very poor family. So, I told my brother that, during the night, I know darkness is like a monster. Darkness can devour you all. But my mom told me, "If you stare into the darkness, instead of being scared of darkness, darkness will disappear." So, I used this tactic and I said to my brother, "Here we are. During the day, I can defeat the darkness; during the night, take you to the outhouse. But during the day, you have to take me everywhere."
KRISTEN WELKER:
That's a bit of a motto for your life: You stare into the darkness. You stare it down.
MASIH ALINEJAD:
That's true, Kristen, I have to say that, because we the women of Iran, women of Afghanistan, we experience a lot of darkness, you know, a lot of darkness. Imagine, imagine–you have beautiful hair. Before coming here, how much time you spend to make your hair beautiful? So you use mirror here in America. We use mirror to our, you know, make ourselves the one that we want to be. But in my country, women use mirror to make themselves the one that the Iranian regime –Taliban, like in Afghanistan – Islamic Republic in Iran want us to be.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to talk about the fact that, for you, in addition to the defiance that you felt when you were a young girl, when you were a teenager you started writing about your opposition to some of what you saw as the oppression by the Iranian government. And you were actually arrested for it –
MASIH ALINEJAD:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– when you were a teenager. What was that like, to be going up against the government, arrested at such a young age?
MASIH ALINEJAD:
I was only 19 years old. And I was pregnant when I was actually involved in activities, just spreading pamphlets around, against the government. And when I got arrested and I found that I was pregnant, I was like, "This is the end of my life." Again, another darkness in myself.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It sounds like you found a lot of strength in your pain, in those moments when you did feel afraid as a younger woman.
MASIH ALINEJAD:
Yes, because they manage to put the fear inside us. But when I see now they're scared of powerful women like me, I was like, "Yes." Why do they send killers here in America? I don't carry any weapons. I'm 45 kilos, no guns and bullets with me. But the government, they have guns and bullets, you know, they're trying to make nuclear bombs. They do everything. They can kill and execute innocent people. With that power – money, prison, all the state media – they're scared of me. Why? Because my weapon is my social media. My weapon is my words. And that shows you that my weapon is more powerful than their voice. That's why they wanted to get rid of me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about how you recently used your voice, your weapon, as you say, to speak out in the wake of the tragic death of Mahsa Amini, 22 years old. She died in the custody of police for, they say, improperly wearing the--
MASIH ALINEJAD:
"Improper."
KRISTEN WELKER:
– hijab. It prompted protests throughout Iran. You highlighted those protests. What do you think
came of that moment?
MASIH ALINEJAD:
You know, I still cannot believe that, in the 21st century, Mahsa Jina Amini, then Armita Geravand, then dozens of other women got killed for the crime of showing their hair, burning their forced head scarves. I cannot believe it, right now that I'm sitting with you, that they're doing that to Iranian women. Yes, it created a huge anger among Iranian men and women. Shoulder to shoulder, they took to the streets. They started to say that, "We want an end for this barbaric regime." And I believe that the flame of the revolution is still burning. Maybe you don't see it on, like, CNN, MSNBC, NBC, FOX News, Channel 4, BBC. But I see that the number of women who, you know, practice their civil disobedience increased, for sure.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You are saying you think that there will still be change –
MASIH ALINEJAD:
Oh, yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– in the wake of the death of Mahsa Amini. Because we have not seen that yet, and some people look at the protests and wonder why wasn't there reform in the wake of those protests, in the wake of all of those voices coming together?
MASIH ALINEJAD:
You know why? Because I have to say that the level of the brutality is very high. But let's be very honest: Revolutions have different phases. In my countries in history, it took, you know, years. So that's why. I have to say, the Islamic Republic took everything away from us – our families, our dignity, our homeland, our freedom – everything, but not hope. Not hope. That's why I believe that sooner or later we will bring this regime now. And I'm going to invite you to my beautiful country. You're going to love freedom and a beautiful homeland without these barbaric mullahs telling you what to wear, how to behave, how to think, you know? They don't even allow you to dance, to have a normal life. So, I still have hope because the new generation has nothing to lose.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Your mom is obviously a huge part of your life. And I can feel and see the emotion when you talk about the fact that you haven't seen her for more than 13 years now. Is that in some ways the cruelest part of all of this, for you?
MASIH ALINEJAD:
That's my weakness. Do you have a picture of my mom? She's very brave, and she's my hero. She's not even able to read and write, but she is a true feminist, and she taught me how to be strong. And it's not easy for me to be away from my mom. I'm very sorry.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Nothing to be sorry for. Take your time.
MASIH ALINEJAD:
I wake up every day out of fear of losing her, without being able to hug her. And this is the situation of millions of Iranian people, living in exile or inside Iran. This is the government. They ruined families, many families. But I have hope. I have hope. I'm not sure whether I have hope for whether I can see her or not. But, yeah, this is painful.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And just finally, what would your mom say, if she were sitting here with us today, about this moment, about your struggle and fight for women all over this world?
MASIH ALINEJAD:
She would be proud of me, because she knows that I'm still fighting against the darkness. My mom told me that instead of being scared of the darkness, just open your eyes as wide as you can. The darkness will disappear. As a kid, I thought that was a fact, and I used to open my eyes as wide as I could. But now, I believe that all women in Iran, Afghanistan, across the globe, we must do that. We must open our eyes as wide as we can. We have to stare into the darkness. We have to get shoulder to shoulder and fight against those barbaric mullahs who are killing us. So, my mom would be proud of me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
There’s no doubt about that. Well, Alinejad says in this new year her goal is to take her message directly to the White House and meet with President Biden. If you want to help this morning consider giving to the National Multiple Sclerosis Society, Maternity Care Coalition or the Committee to Protect Journalists. That's all for today, thank you so much for watching. We want to wish you a very Merry Christmas. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday it's Meet the Press.